'We're at a tipping point': A Q&A with Joel Daniels

Joel Daniels is chief advocate with Revolution Benefits Group, providing aggregate solutions to fit small businesses and help them affordably provide access to care that promotes better health outcomes.

How did you get your start in the benefits industry?

Like so many in this industry, it was kind of by accident. My wife and I were living in Mexico; I was working remotely for a really great company in a leadership position, and then I stepped down for greater flexibility and we were doing some missionary work. About a year into our time down there, my wife ended up getting pregnant, which was a surprise to us. We had planned to go farther and farther south and eventually end up between Peru and Bolivia. I really wanted to do that and my wife is such an amazing person that she was ready to try it; she was very supportive. Obviously, we didn’t end up doing that.

So we were living in Mexico and I was looking at adding my wife to my health plan; we had a pretty solid plan, from what I knew about health insurance at the time. I personally didn’t have to pay a lot into my own health plan, because my company was really generous, but when we discovered what it would cost to add my wife to the plan was more than what we were paying for our home, we thought, “this is dumb.”

Mexico’s health system is a little different; we had access to a membership program at a local hospital, so we subscribed to that program, paid the a la carte baby package and ended up paying about $2,200 total out of pocket, and that included our membership and the paperwork required to get her citizenship in the U.S. Meanwhile, we would have paid about $750 a month in insurance, plus a deductible, the maximum out of pocket and whatever sneaky things the insurance company didn’t want to pay for. So I was completely turned off from insurance at that point; I just hated it.

Mexico was a cool adventure, but my wife couldn’t really nest there after the baby was born, so we moved back to the states. We’re both from Southern California, but we bypassed SoCal and went to Oregon. My company really wanted me to continue to work there, but I would have had to come back to California. We ended up severing ties and that was a major bummer, because I love that company. But a friend of my niece worked with Aflac at the market office. He said he was looking for someone like me that he trusted.

When I talked to people who worked there, I started to understand their stories; I finally got involved. One of the guy’s moms had passed away from cancer, and what Aflac covered in that situation appealed to me, because I hated insurance. I thought, “This is an insurance company that helps people with areas that insurance isn’t covering? Cool, I’m about that.” I worked there for a little while. I created and led a department focused on sales quality. I worked really hard, I think, but I wasn’t really successful. I was focusing on relationships and slow-burn stuff, but I wasn’t hugely successful. I was one of the featured up-and-coming agents for Aflac; I got rookie of the year and won trips and all that stuff and it’s cool, but I started listening more to what my clients were needing and I wasn’t solving that problem for them.

Around that time, I started talking with the guy who recruited me and we decided to open up our own business that was focused on enrollment. In 2019, we founded that company and became carrier agnostic, which I thought was very cool. Rather than focusing on a specific brand, we tried to find the best solution for the client.

It was a really interesting year; we got connected with a great carrier and we were invited to an industry conference. I was blown away, because I realized just how little I knew about the industry. It was eye-opening, because I discovered that there are a lot of other ways to access care, along with things like self-funding, level funding, medical cost-sharing, direct primary care, virtual primary care, and all these really cool things.

We went into this thinking we were creating something completely new and discovered that it was new in our area, but there are a lot of people already doing it well and doing other things, too.

Around that time, the paths of my business partner and I started to diverge. He wanted to focus on going fully into enrollment and voluntary benefits; I wanted to look in other directions. What can we do for the community? How can we elevate people? I started connecting and having different conversations. I got appointed with Sedera at that point and became embedded into a local network of direct primary care doctors. I then created my own company in 2020.

How has this journey so far shaped who you are, your perspectives on benefits and your role as an advisor?

It’s about continuing to evolve. COVID was huge because early on when we formed the business, I knew that if we onboard two new clients a month, we’re in good shape. Our bills are paid and we get to keep a little bit. We had three clients at the time, one of which I knew we were going to take an L on. It was our first out-of-state client, so we did it. It was a learning experience.

But when COVID first emerged, our two other clients were restaurants. The state of Oregon basically shut down during March, so here we have three clients, going to one that we took a loss on. By April, I’m looking at applying for jobs. I’m frustrated because I have this business that I think is something special. I was about to walk away but then I had conversations with a few people that really helped. Andy Neary called me out of the blue and helped me realize that I was kept in this space for a reason, even when I wanted out.

Around that time, I started really getting more involved in watching people and learning from people through LinkedIn, attending seminars and virtual events and trying to get better and find out what people actually need. I also started to get more involved with coaching with Ryan Miller. I learned to look at the successful people around you who you admire and see what they’re doing. Did we have the money for coaching at that point? No, we didn’t. We were broke. But we started getting a little bit of traction and that coaching helped provide a lot more clarity. One of the things he told me is that nobody has my specific light and that I needed to let that shine. As an introvert, I can function in an extrovert world, but I get really tired. But no one has what I have specifically, and he felt it was a disservice if I didn’t let my light shine.

During that training, I got connected with some really cool people like Alison de Paoli and Nancy Giacolone. Allison puts out such amazing content all the time, which is inspiring. And Nancy has because like a cool auntie; her legacy is about helping lift up other people, which is what I’d like to accomplish, too. She’s helped me clarify my message, because it’s not necessarily just the marketing and the sales. I’m an operations person, but I’m trying to create an operation that’s completely different in an industry that I’m still learning. If I have a case I need help on, I can call Nancy or connect with David Contorno and Emma Fox and connect with people who have done these things before. And I can then learn from them and most importantly, I’m doing the right thing for that client, because I know where my limitations lie and I know my strengths.

One of your big focuses is engagement. Can you talk about the Great Resignation, your thoughts on what’s next and how/if benefits can make a difference?

I think there’s a tremendous opportunity. I read an article recently discussing the reason why this Great Resignation is happening. There’s a Star Wars quote where Obi-Wan senses a disturbance in the Force and he says he feels millions of voices shouting out in terror before being silenced. That’s kind of what happened with COVID. You have a situation where billions of people across the planet have a traumatic experience all at once. When we have these types of events, we reassess: Where are we going in life? What are we doing now? Why are we doing what we’re doing?

There has been an awakening of people realizing they don’t want to be mistreated or treated like scrubs, especially after a period where they had an opportunity to work on their side hustles or to create their own thing, businesses in their own images. It’s kind of what I did.

I don’t think benefits alone can fully solve this problem. I think it’s part of the equation, but the first step is culture, in my opinion. I can’t help you at all as a benefits advisor if your culture sucks. If your culture is garbage, you’re going to lose employees, so stop focusing so much on benefits for a while and try to invest in your own personality and create a better culture.

There’s going to be a tremendous opportunity for employers to invest in development programs and coaching. Things like tuition reimbursement or debt repayment plans have huge potential when it comes to benefits. It’s about more than just the health side of things, it’s about creating peace of mind. How do we help people better themselves? How do we help employees learn to use their benefits in the first place? That’s the problem we’re trying to solve right now, because I feel like we do a pretty good job on the front end educating folks about how to use their benefits, but it’s not something they do day in and day out. A 30-minute conversation isn’t going to be enough. They’re not going to retain it; they’re going to forget everything we said. You need tools and resources available beyond a benefits platform, so advocacy is going to be really important.

I think technology will help. We see companies like Benezon and freshbenies creating solutions that provide a high-tech, high-tech way to access advocacy and all of your benefits in one place. I think technology is going to have to continue to evolve to simplify the experience for employees and to create better engagement. But it has to start with culture. If that’s not there, benefits and compensation don’t matter.

How are conversations about innovation and change going with clients and prospects right now? Are you getting more buy-in?

There’s a lot more receptivity than there was before. Tying it back into culture and reinvesting in employees, one of the biggest expenses for employer groups is their health care plan. If they’re able to start paying less for those plans and get better health outcomes for their employees, what can they do with that savings? They can reinvest in the community, they can get their employees more engaged. At my previous employer, we participated in community projects, cleaning up the beach or building a home. They can reinvest in programs like that or in employee development. I think people are starting to realize that they need to do something.

I recently hosted a conference with David Contorno for our local SHRM and have since had some good conversations with employers in the area. One of my clients who attended was blown away because he didn’t even know about all the things that David was speaking about. Last year, we instituted a self-funded plan and they saw some of the savings, but this validated the decision they’d made and you should have heard the excitement in his voice. He said, “We didn’t fully understand this when it was instituted, but now we’re starting to get it.”

I think there are a lot more people looking for other ways to do things. On one new case, there were two other brokers who went in; we were asked to, because their HR consultant approached us. We won the case, despite having other established brokers go in. That was really edifying because we didn’t go in with a suit and tie; I went in with a Star Wars shirt, a jacket and a pair of jeans. My focus was on how our discussion would help the employees, while their focus was strictly on the numbers. I think that my message has been catching on here locally and we are starting to see some shifts and turns. Now we have to focus on executing.

What are some of the areas you’re watching when it comes to issues around innovation, cost and quality? Any predictions on areas to watch over the next few years?

I think virtual primary care will continue to gain steam. Again, I think what companies like freshbenies and Benezon are doing will continue to make a big impact. But from a service standpoint, I think one of the challenges in my space, where we specifically target small businesses between five and 25 employees, is that you’re often not getting a lot for the amount of money you’re paying in that space. So direct primary care, virtual primary care, technology, a medical cost-sharing program and dental often all cost less and produce a better health outcome than a typical group health plan would.

The issue we’re trying to solve for right now as we’re exploring different options is that’s five different bills, five different invoices to reconcile. If we’re dealing with a 5-25 life group, there’s a good chance they don’t have all the processes and systems in place to handle tasks outside of their core business. We run the risk of making their administration complex as we try to save money and improve health outcomes. Some clients are OK with that, but not all clients truly understand what’s involved. I think there’s an opportunity for certain types of TPAs to create solutions for these smaller clients, who make up the vast majority of businesses in this country.

What changes or trends brought about by the pandemic will stick around for the long-term?

I hope that employers realize the value of their employees and continue to find ways to innovate and develop themselves to be the leaders that their employees need them to be.

I think that technology is going to continue to evolvep. Here in southern Oregon, it feels like we’ve always been about 10 years behind everywhere else. Now, grandparents are using Zoom. Not well… but they’re using it!

Things like virtual enrollment, virtual education, virtual happy hours, all these things exist now, whereas I don’t think they were a mainstay before last year.

There will be a ton more start-ups for a while, but that could taper off, because the companies that don’t continue to evolve won’t be around anymore. I think that might be a good thing. They can take their nest egg, sail off into the sunset and live the life that I want in Bolivia. And I’ll just live vicariously through them.

COVID was a great equalizer in many ways. It put my agency, our little rag-tag group of rebels, in the conversation with larger agencies that have been around for a long time. We’re the only one doing what we do here in this area. There’s almost a passing of the baton going on right now (not always willingly) and I think there’s going to be a power shift. We see a revolution happening right now. People are accessing health care in new ways, which means we’re at the tipping point.

How can the industry do a better job of attracting new talent, while becoming more diverse and bringing in young people to keep its momentum going?

It’s about being authentic. What I’ve seen in this industry is that there’s sometimes a putting on of airs. And I did this, too. Earlier in my career, I put on suits and ties and tried to be sharper than everyone else. I was dressing for the job that I wanted. In this part of the country, that’s really not necessary. We’re very laid back here, but that’s what I thought was necessary. It was like a suit of armor for me. These days, if someone isn’t my people, I don’t care. But back then, I thought I had to look the part in order to be taken seriously. People need to shed the shell and just be real. Like attracts like. So, who are you really? Instead of going after all the business, go after the people and companies that resonate with your message.

If you’re looking to diversity, you should probably start talking to and connecting with people who aren’t like you. Don’t be afraid of having a different conversation. Be ready to have an open mind.

I had a really good conversation with a broker early in my career. He was an older guy, former military, and he had his opinions and all that, but what I learned from him was to never go into a conversation with an agenda. Don’t go into a conversation thinking “what am I going to get out of this?” Let’s just have a conversation and see where it goes. Did he and I have much in common? No, aside from the fact we both like business and both sell insurance. But we had good conversations and there’s a mutual level of respect. Coming from a place of understanding; you can have a different opinion; you don’t have to have your views changed by someone else, but come with an understanding that just because I have my own view doesn’t make yours any less valid.

We talk a lot about how the health care system is broken. How do you stay motivated and positive and not become overwhelmed or discouraged?

I think rather than “broken” a better term is “rigged.” I have this hyper sense of justice; I have a compass that says “this is right, this is wrong.” The way this system is set up is very wrong. It impacts people like you and I, normal people. It doesn’t hugely impact the rich or the poor, it’s designed to impact everyone else. That ain’t right!

Simply put, I’m vehemently anti “the man.” I don’t like the system. It’s kind of like a Rage Against The Machine “Bulls On Parade” situation. I wouldn’t say I stay positive, it’s often more like Hulk mode.

I think some healthy anger is necessary sometimes. On the flip side, what are your favorite things about your job?

I know I can’t solve the problem myself, but it makes me happy to be part of the solution. I love being connected with so many people who I view as smarter than me and who have their own way of addressing the issue.

I don’t think there’s a silver bullet, but collectively, we can have a big impact. There are so many factors that it probably isn’t completely solvable, but we should try to have a positive impact on as many people as we can. It’s so much better than doing nothing.

Finish this sentence: The key to success in this industry going forward is…

Leveling up.